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Talk:The Dance of Dragons
I'm pretty sure the plot section refers to a wrong episode Grizzhly (talk) 21:43, June 2, 2015 (UTC) Yeah, it's the plot synopsis for 4x10, The Children, instead of 5x09, isn't it? —ArticXiongmao (talk) 21:58, June 2, 2015 (UTC) The page is lock, so it's a admin who changed it. I don't know why.--Mesmermann (talk) 22:09, June 2, 2015 (UTC) Here's the plot: Stannis confronts a troubling decision. Jon returns to The Wall. Mace visits the Iron Bank. Arya encounters someone from her past. Dany reluctantly oversees a traditional celebration of athleticism. http://www.thefutoncritic.com/listings/20150528hbo01/#ixzz3c0hKLaKu Wrong synopsis The Grim Botches Edits (talk) 18:34, June 3, 2015 (UTC) Yes, fix the synopsis please.-- 00:32, June 4, 2015 (UTC) : Sorry about that guys. It's been fixed.--Ser Patrek (talk) 08:57, June 4, 2015 (UTC) : Still wrong. Lksdjf (talk) 09:23, June 4, 2015 (UTC) Series Regulars If someone wants to add them, the following main characters are confirmed for the episode with the episode promo, promo photos, and the synposis. #Peter Dinklage as Tyrion Lannister #Nikolaj Coster-Waldau as Jaime Lannister #Emilia Clarke as Daenerys Targaryen #Kit Harington as Jon Snow #Stephen Dillane as Stannis Baratheon #Liam Cunningham as Davos Seaworth #Carice van Houten as Melisandre #Indira Varma as Ellaria Sand #John Bradley as Samwell Tarly #Maisie Williams as Arya Stark #Kristofer Hivju as Tormund Giantsbane #Jerome Flynn as Bronn #Michiel Huisman as Daario Naharis #Nathalie Emmanuel as Missandei #Tom Wlaschiha as Jaqen H'ghar #Iwan Rheon as Ramsay Bolton #Iain Glen as Jorah Mormont Alcasinoroyale (talk) 17:02, June 4, 2015 (UTC) Leak Apparently the episode was leaked out by an international broadcaster a matter of hours before the HBO premiere tonight at 9 PM EST. BY THE SWORD OF THE PALE CHILD *BAKKALON*, HOW DO LEAKS LIKE THIS KEEP HAPPENING?!?! --The Dragon Demands (talk) 18:32, June 7, 2015 (UTC) :What's you source? Google seem to know nothing about it.--Mesmermann (talk) 19:25, June 7, 2015 (UTC) WatchersOnTheWall.com twitter feed mentioned it.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:57, June 7, 2015 (UTC) The big question The main thing that's been bothering me - How did the Sons of the Harpy mass-produce these masks so quickly and without anyone noticing? I can't imagine they had all those just lying around somewhere. Supermensch (talk) 07:45, June 8, 2015 (UTC) Actually considering how little we know of The Harpy religion/tradition they could very well have just been lying around somewhere, they could be festival props for all we know, besides not everyone in Meereen likes Daenerys so it wouldn't shock me if they found a smith willing to help them. Gboy4 (talk) 07:57, June 8, 2015 (UTC) :Still, that's a LOT of masks. Supermensch (talk) 08:01, June 8, 2015 (UTC) :Yeah maybe it's like their version of off-the-shelf carnivale masks or something.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:57, June 8, 2015 (UTC) :This could also be an organization that's been in existence for centuries in Meereen & has staged insurgencies before. As for the masks lying around somewhere like Supermensch (cool name btw!) hinted at, why not? Masks used by past members in a storage chamber somewhere in the city. Break 'em out when an opportunity like this one arises! --Quiscustodiet (talk) 03:41, June 10, 2015 (UTC) "Maegor the Third" Did I hear that right? If so who in Seven Hells is Maegor the Third?--Ser Patrek (talk) 06:08, June 8, 2015 (UTC) BY THE CURLED FANGS OF THE *SKY DEMON*, WHO THE HELL IS "MAEGOR THE THIRD"? I...I assume this is a dialogue error? Westeros.org was similarly baffled and upset: https://youtu.be/oOMjWq1tt4A?t=52m50s --The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:57, June 8, 2015 (UTC) : This is a clear-cut case of the show being different to the show, and, if I may add, in such a minor way that it's really not worth bickering over. It's not "obviously" a case of the actor misreading his lines... you're (again) coming up with conspiracy theories in order to justify trying to forcibly reconcile show and book canon. Also, threatening to lock a page in order to push your personal POV on the wiki is not acceptable conduct for an administrator.--The White Winged Fury 17:00, June 8, 2015 (UTC) ::Elio and Linda are constantly baffled and upset so that's nothing new and always bums me out how much influence they exert. Wish it Roger Ashton-Griffiths had said King Baelor or another one, but I kind of concur that Maegor III is show canon now. WaitingForYou (talk) 17:05, June 8, 2015 (UTC) :::Well I won't lock the page, but we also shouldn't assume that this is meant to be a new and separate king. Much as we later just made "Orys the First" into "Orys I Durrandon" after Westeros.org was similarly confused.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:05, June 8, 2015 (UTC) ::::Didn't they use Orys because saying Aenys out loud sounds kind of silly? WaitingForYou (talk) 17:09, June 8, 2015 (UTC) :::::So... they changed anal to oral? O.o Supermensch (talk) 23:23, June 8, 2015 (UTC) Nah, because 1 - Aenys ruled for more than one year 2- Aenys didn't enact any particular reforms, 3 - he wasn't actually killed by his own brother.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:13, June 8, 2015 (UTC) : Ditto WaitingForYou, Elio and Linda are book purists, and complain about every single change no matter how minor. I'm not sure why you constantly fall back on their views for guidance saying "Even Elio and Linda say that"... they're not some divine authority. You're the one making assumptions. You're assuming it's wrong simply because you want it to be wrong. Until someone with the authority to do so (not Elio and Linda) clarifys the issue, Mace says Maegor the Third. That's the fact.--The White Winged Fury 17:18, June 8, 2015 (UTC) ...again sorry I got upset when it was reverted twice, that's why I pushed discussion to here instead of letting it drop. ...I don't know if we have wiki-consensus on that view to accept this as fact.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:23, June 8, 2015 (UTC) ..."consensus on that view"? What "view" is that? The TV show introduced a new piece of canon. The wiki should reflect that, adding that the canon in this case is different in the books. It's really that simple. Don't bend over backwards to reconcile the canons (especially not citing Elio & Linda as authorities of the show.) FFS, of course Mace didn't mispeak. Is that a real suggestion? —ArticXiongmao (talk) 17:26, June 8, 2015 (UTC) Well personally I think either the actor misspoke, or in-universe Mace misspoke. Again, sorry ArticXiongmao for reverting this instantly I was busy at the time and really should have moved it here to the Talk page for discussion in the first place (I was typing out of anger at the scriptwriters, not you). Er, what do the other Admins think?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:56, June 8, 2015 (UTC) I have re-written the note on here to try to reflect that we're not sure what's going on and explain the issue to readers. I see that White Winged Fury made a Maegor III article, that's good. Crud I hope the writers explain this at some point. Would you guys be comfortable with leaving the new note as it is; explaining "we're not sure if this is a mistake or not" (down from my earlier "this is a mistake") or do you still argue that we should accept it as fact? (well, "accept as fact" is a flexible term; we'd include the info here or the "Maegor III" article you wrote, but leaving in a warning note that "we can't tell if this is a mistake or intentional" etc.)--The Dragon Demands (talk) 14:28, June 9, 2015 (UTC) The only reason to believe the character misspoke is book canon (and not even widely known canon; we only know it differs from the books due to the fact we have the whole Targaryen dynasty... in supplementary materials, not the books themselves.) What happened in the context of the episode is something that always happens: a character made a point by using a historical example, giving us viewers the sense that it is a real world with real history (and giving us editors something to add to the wiki.) That was the purpose of the scene; world-building. It's absurd to say the writers made the character mispeak on purpose, since only .001% of the viewing audience would understand he's wrong per book canon. It's almost as absurd to say the writers cared about remaining faithful to completely meaningless (in terms of story) supplementary book materials. They picked a Targaryen name and made up a king. Is that so difficult to understand or accept? These names of long-dead characters hold absolutely no meaning to the story they're telling; they don't care that they are changing obscure book canon, and they shouldn't. I would go further: even if it was a mistake by the writers or the actor instead of a deliberate choice of name, the writers won't and shouldn't go back on it and say it was wrong, since this is utterly meaningless canon; "canon" in fiction, especially in filmmaking, is often created by production limitations, mistakes, etc. just look at Star Trek or Doctor Who, for example. And these quirks become accepted in canon —why? Because that's what the characters in the ACTUAL show said, so it makes sense to listen to that instead of anything else. The White Winged fury said it best: This is the show being different to the books, and in an incredibly small meaningless way; and it makes no sense that this is the actor misreading his lines (and even if it is, it doesn't matter; it's show canon now.) As he said, you're coming up with elaborate theories in order to justify trying to forcibly reconcile show and book canon. So no, I don't think it should be noted that "it may be a mistake", because that statement doesn't make any sense whatsoever. What "mistake"? They introduced a new piece of little canon in the show; it differs from the books, as many other things have, which sometimes happens deliberately and sometimes because of limitations (I'm sure that in D&D's ideal canon Blackwater and the Battle of Castle Black would've included more of a naval aspect and more men and creatures respectively) or even mistakes, which can always be retconned later if they contradict something (in this case, there's no internal consistency problem.) So, having said all that, here's what I think we should do: just note in the episode's Note section that this king doesn't exist in the books, though the name is a Targaryen name; and say pretty much the same thing in the "in the books" section of Maegor III.—ArticXiongmao (talk) 18:02, June 9, 2015 (UTC) ArticXiongmao...I fully recognize the possibility that the scriptwriters may have intentionally invented a "King Maegor III". ...but you are arguing, in as many words, that if a technical error occurs on-screen such as a miswritten line...and even IF the scriptwriters later publicly state "this was simply an error and we should have said something else"...they are not allowed to correct their own material? TV shows are not a persistently existing alternate reality, nor are books. They're ongoing fictional creations of specific writers and YES, if they later acknowledge that something was just a dialogue error (and it helps there is sufficient corroborating evidence that it was an error)...then yes, that was a dialogue error. To be clear I am not talking about "Maegor III" but in general here. I mean, what if Ned Stark said in one episode "I have eight children"? And then Benioff and Weiss later publicly stated "that was a dialogue error, officially he only has six children including Jon Snow, we just made a script mistake and never intended that". In this hypothetical example, are you saying that nonetheless we should ignore their correction and continue to assume that Ned must have two other children we never heard about? I mean...Rickard Karstark. He said in one episode "I'd pray to the Father to bring my son back, but it won't work". Cogman later was asked about this and acknowledged it was a dialogue error: the Karstarks follow the Old Gods. Though he offered the explanation that we could understand him to be saying this sarcastically to try to make it fit (i.e. like Karstark saying "I'd pray to the Great Stallion if it would bring my son back!") Whatever the case, Cogman acknowledged this as an error and not to take it as proof that the Karstarks instead follow the Faith of the Seven. That is the equivalent of the episode of Seinfeld in which George Costanza adamantly insists that Spain was invaded by the "Moops" is the correct answer to a Trivial Pursuit question, due to the answer card being misprinted when the correct answer is "Moors". In this context, would you say "Moops" suddenly exist? No, that kind of thinking will not be accepted on Game of Thrones Wiki - by which I mean your specific example that even if the scriptwriters issue a retraction acknowledging something as just a typo or something, we should ignore them and continue to treat the error as fact. Not just mistakes we suspect that is, I mean the suggestion that even retractions should be ignored? Again, on the other hand, if the scriptwriters intended to invent a new king not in the books, well I can't argue with that.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:20, June 9, 2015 (UTC) :Because the Moors were real and this is the old book cannon over show cannon stuff and Maegor III is just as made-up as Maegar the Cruel, Ned Stark, Arianne Martell or Sherlock Holmes. That isn't belittling that they're fictional, but just using a metric of what truly/''factually''/''historically'' happen did or did not happen doesn't work the same way whether the Moops existed. This appeal of ignorance is all the rage on the Game of Thrones Wiki when it's supports book cannon over show cannon. The show made this or that mistakes before therefore this must also be one is totally weak. If the show makes a mistake about Rickard Karstark's religion, than it's only about the Rickard Karstark article and not real grounds to state it's a precedent that anything that doesn't match up with book cannon is a mistake. Besides Rickard Karstark within the show is a follower of the old gods. Nobody on the show has ever said there is only one king named Maegar and now contradicted it. I could somewhat get that Rickard Karstark following the Seven is weird for a Northern lord, but there being Maegor III in show cannon really doesn't change anything. And if somebody on the show said Maegar III was a mistake, that's fine, but putting motives without evidence or reading minds is wrong. WaitingForYou (talk) 21:13, June 9, 2015 (UTC) ::Look I'm not saying the TV series can't be different, but that sometimes the TV writers make typos and so forth and their own intent is not adequately conveyed. There is reasonable cause to question if this was either an error, or a subtle in-joke lost on the rest of us.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:11, June 9, 2015 (UTC) :::Exactly, WYU. It's really that simple. :::TTD, you misunderstood me. If the writers come out and say "we're wrong" of course that'd supersede what's on-screen. My point is... they wouldn't be stupid enough to do so. You're always saying "hopefully the writers will explain themselves." They won't. That's not how authors work. They're not fans like us (thank god.) Even if Maegor III was a mistake (of course it isn't), if they realize it they won't admit to it or correct it it any way, because there is NO internal contradiction with this being part of the canon now. There is nothing WRONG with it. So it's now canon, even if it was a typo originally. WaitingForYou explained it beautifully just above me. It's absurd to say "hey, maybe the character mispoke." Stop trying so hard to rationalize show canon when it patently diverges from book canon... especially when it's something as innocuous as a long-dead king. It's an almost absurdist epitome of purism and literalism in fandom. —ArticXiongmao (talk) 22:15, June 9, 2015 (UTC) I asked George R.R. Martin about "Maegor the Third" on his livejournal, and beyond all expectations he actually responded. http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/12392 Westeros.org has included his statement in their "So Spake Martin" archive. Martin himself strongly suspected it was either an error or intentionally having Mace mess up his history as a joke. He hadn't seen the script himself so he couldn't say for sure. Hopefully in the next day or two via twitter (after Westeros.org announced they were adding it to the SSM archive) it might get the attention of Cogman. Updates as I receive them. Even Martin thought this was in error.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 23:15, June 9, 2015 (UTC) As Martin himself says, he actually doesn't know and has no way to know. He may also be too close to his worldbuilding to comprehend that the writers saw no issue in inventing a king, knowing full well he didn't exist in the books. Purists would complain anyway if they ascribed that story to an existing king. —ArticXiongmao (talk) 23:38, June 9, 2015 (UTC) I hold out no serious hope that the writers will say more about the Night's King, but I do hope they can clarify "Maegor III" in post-season interviews with Westeros.org or something, Q&A stuff. Until then we need a short term solution: the Maegor III Targaryen article will stay up for now I guess -- would anyone like to change the wording of the Note about it as it is currently written? We're looking for a temporary solution here, hold us over for a month or so, by then the writers might say more.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 17:28, June 10, 2015 (UTC) Alright I contacted Roger Ashton-Griffiths (Mace) and he confirmed that "Maegor the Third" is what was in the script: https://twitter.com/ashtongriffiths/status/613637647802724352 --The Dragon Demands (talk) 14:50, June 24, 2015 (UTC) Mace Tyrell's Bodyguards I know that Ser Meryn Trant was assigned to protect Lord Tyrell, but as he's a Lord Paramount in his own right and unofficially the richest man in the Seven Kingdoms, I wonder why Mace only brought Lannister soldiers with him instead of his own household guard? A bit weird. 23:18, June 8, 2015 (UTC) Perhaps because Braavos was safe enough for doing so. AerionTargaryen (talk) 00:36, June 9, 2015 (UTC) Norvoshi man fighting Jorah in the fighting pit? The notes say that Jorah fights a "Norvoshi Bearded Priest" in the fighting pits. I see him fighting a bald black man wielding an axe, but the guy clearly doesn't have a beard or anything. Why would we assume he's Norvoshi? Not necessarily a priest but at least Norvoshi-trained like Areo Hotah?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 00:21, June 21, 2015 (UTC) Kinslaying Would it be too much to add that bit of dialogue between Tyrion and Jaime about the various forms of familial killing to this page? Shaneymike (talk) 22:38, September 17, 2015 (UTC) What? Not really - a lot of stuff can go in the "Quotes" sections on the episode pages - only the character ones need to be a little more notable quotes. Do what you want.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:01, September 18, 2015 (UTC) I was actually referring to the quotes section of the kinslaying page. I can't add anything to it because it's locked. I've already included the aforementioned dialogue on at least two pages so I guess it would be redundant to add it to the kinslaying page. I just figured it was fitting to include it there too since they were talking about cousin-killing and whatnot. Shaneymike (talk) 01:52, September 18, 2015 (UTC) Oh crud, that's what you meant; yes I'll unlock it. I think it was unlocked to avoid spoilers or something before.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 02:53, September 18, 2015 (UTC)